California
Captolweek November 17, 2000
Rethinking
the way we vote
Political
cartoonists
((Jack))
This week…rethinking the way we vote. Should
the internet replace the ballot box?
And
could it replace tabulating errors? Our
secretary of state weighs in our ballot confusion and tells how Californians
may cast ballots in the future.
((Melissa))
Plus the fight for votes rages on as the battle for presidency is battled
out in the courts. From the popular votes to the electoral college to the
courts… who should decide who our
next President should be?
((Melissa))
And We’ll direct your questions to the experts and California elector. Hello, I’m Melissa Crowley
((Jack))
and I’m Jack Kavanagh. How and when
will this election end? Is next.
DISCUSSION PT. 1
((Jack))
Thank you for joining us.
We
had promised to talk a lot about the
soaring electricity rates but since all eyes are still on the election, we
will save that power issue for a later date.
Later in this program we will tackle the popular vote vs. the electoral
college debate as we meet a California elector. We’ll also answer some questions you sent to us but first the Presidential
puzzle is still getting more complicated as we tape this broadcast this Thursday
morning both Bush and Gore campaigns are raising money for legal expenses
both have offered compromise to bring this issue to a close.
The
spotlight remains on Florida. Attention this week has been on recounts and
the hand counts and accuracy of the process.
National polls show the majority of the Americans want certainty as
the final result. The Gore and Bush
camps have different opinions on how to achieve a fair outcome and they are
looking to the judicial system for help which means Americans could be in
for quite a wait. Florida secretary
of state is in the center of the debate so we will turn our attention to the
Secretary of State in California, Bill Jones, to help sort this all out. Also joining us, MarkBaldassare, from the Public Policy Institute of California. Bill let me start with you. We got a tremendous amount of e-mail on this
issue from last week and let me just quote directly from Kay Ogormon from
Ventura. She writes,
“…Why
in the 21st century are we still poking holes in the paper to vote.”
Have you ask yourself that question more than once?
((Bill
Jones, CA Secretary of State)) Well, the Constitution says that elections
need to be held and run by the states. And
the counties in California make the decision after we certify the decision
on what type of system they are going to acquire and they acquire with their
own money. So, we have systems that
work fairly well over the years-punch cards, we have optical scan systems-
and now we have new touch screen voting systems, very much like an A-T-M machine. We have that in one county totally this election.
First county in this country that way. And it does not allow for double
counts. It has all the ballot styles on it.
And it has a lot of benefits. You’re going to see more and more of
that, but they are about 3,000 per unit.
I’ve supported legislation to have money available to counties in this
last session- it didn’t quite make it through, but I think next year, after
all this discussion, it will have a better chance.
((Jack))
Mark, when you go next into the polling
fray, I know that you poll regularly
and you probably have one of the best pollsist on California. What kind of questions will you ask about this election process what’s going on
in Florida or will you ask voters whether they’re happy with they way the
system works now?
((Mark
Baldassare, Public Policy Institute
of CA)) Well, I think we want find out in California how people felt about
the outcome nationally and we want to find out how people felt about voting
here and how they felt about having exit polls calling elections on the east
coast and in the case this year, those exit polls not being accurate.
((Jack))
What about online voting, Bill? I
mean that has come up…I’ve seen editorials, commentaries, written in newspapers
, especially in the Silicon Valley saying, “hey, wait a minute. We can transfer a million dollars in the bank
accounts, securely and honestly, on the internet. Why can’t we vote on the internet?
((Bill
Jones, CA Secretary of State)) Well, we put out a report on online voting. We laid out a four stage approach. We did the demonstration on the first stage
this last Tuesday and basically what it does is it does have opportunities
and as we demonstrate this system we’ll find out what the problems are. We perceive up front there are two major problems.
Security, of what some people perceive as online voting, where your
sitting at home pushing a key on your computer and sending a signal.
The hackers or the viruses sitting in that P-C getting into our system
and contaminating everything….
((Jack))
And we secondly…we should say there were denial of services attacks on E-Bay
and Yahoo where some people in other parts of the country were literally able
to shut the sites down for 4 or 5 hours and what would that happen on an election
day?
((Bill
Jones, CA Secretary of State)) Well, and you remember prior to last March,
they had some raiding of credit card numbers on the internet, and people lost
their credit card numbers in some cases.
So, what we have to do is have security of the system, so there’s no
viruses. Secondly, we gotta have an idea of the voters.
So if you are sitting at home pushing a button, we know you are who
you say you are. On absentee ballots we use signatures to verify.
Voting you show up at the polls and you’re there.
So we have those two major items, but over a period of time I think
you will see that technology come to pass.
But right now we’re approving touch screen systems, as I mentioned,
that are working fairly well, and alleviate a lot of the questions that many
of your listeners and viewers probably ask.
((Jack))
Because it’s a closed system that does not go on the internet?
((Bill
Jones, CA Secretary of State)) That does not go on the internet. The software is very similar, as far as the
calculation and the computing. But
what the voter sees when they go to the polls, is something as I say, they
can’t double count, has all the ballot types, has all the languages, handicapped
accessible and it provides the information pretty readily.
((Jack))
Mark, when people respond to your polls about spending public money and taxes,
what is going to happen if Board of Supervisors, for example, is looking at
$13 million for a new state of the art communications system for their police
department and a $13 million upgrade for their voting system, how, how do
voters want that money spent?
((Mark
Baldassare, Public Policy Institute
of CA)) Well, they’re gonna’ want it spent on the basic services first. So I think we’re really, we’re really at a
cross-roads here, in which we have to decide what to do with some of these
surplus funds that the state seems to be getting at bigger and bigger numbers
now. And whether some of that money
ought to be spent on putting uh, better voting system into the counties.
((Jack))
We hear a lot of discussion about CHAD and pregnant CHAD and penetration and
all the other things that are going on. But
California apparently has CHAD laws on the books.
((Bill
Jones, CA Secretary of State)) That’s correct . . .
((Jack))
We’ve already been there and . . .
((Bill
Jones, CA Secretary of State)) We’ve been there and we have regulations out,
and the counties have them so if they were to come into this environment they
would know what type of CHAD to count and what type not to count. But, what I wanna’ point out, the systems that
we’ve had have worked fairly well over the years. Anytime you have 11 million in California,
11 ½ million people showing up on the same day to do anything, there is going
to be some differences especially if it’s close. And probably the same is true in California.
((Jack))
The closest one I can think of right now is Michado Nakansi, for the State
Senate, that’s down to a couple hundred votes.
I mean after all the uh, the uh tally now in Florida as we speak, today
is about 300 votes. Uh, why doesn’t
CHAD come up in the State Senate races? Or
those other races like we see in Florida?
((Bill
Jones, CA Secretary of State)) Well again, this is not, this is not . . .
what we’re doing now is we’re totaling the absentees. You cannot have a recount in California until the semiofficial canvass
is done on December 5th. Right
now, no one can come in and say I want a recount. You can do that after December 5th. After everything’s done and we know exactly
where the numbers are, before I certify the election, but not until.
((Jack))
The biggest criticism of the news
media, of course, on election night, was calling and uncalling and then calling
and uncalling these races. And uh,
Bill Jones has been an advocate of stopping the release of the exit poll information,
but Mark, you’re a pollster? Is it
important to have this exit polling information?
((Mark
Baldassare, Public Policy Institute
of CA)) Well, it’s extremely important to have it after the election, because
we need to know who voted in our elections and certainly from the stand point
of our trying to be a democracy that represents all points of view. We want to know, for instance, in California,
how many Latinos are voting? How many
young people are voting? How many
democrats? Republicans?
Independents came out? That’s
extremely important information. The
question is timing. In my opinion
that information should be available after we know the outcome of the election. We don’t really need to know before hand.
If we’re just a little more patient, we have the opportunity to bring
more people to the polls. For people not to be discouraged from hearing
news from the East Coast, from hearing rumors about what the outcomes are
going to be. So I would ask for restraint
in the future.
((Jack))
Let me ask you about, back to the CHAD just generally. Based on your experience what is more accurate
in counting the vote? Running them
through the machine? Or, actually
hand counting the votes? What’ the
more accurate?
((Bill
Jones, CA Secretary of State)) Well I don’t think I’m in a position to answer
that question. We have a requirement
on the systems we certify, that they meet the standard, the machines themselves,
of basically zero tolerance. So the
machines have a very high accuracy rate.
((Jack))
Yeah, but this technology goes back to 1960, it’s 40 years old.
((Bill
Jones, CA Secretary of State)) I know, but the point is I’m just telling you
the methodology and how we determine the certifications of these systems. Now if you’re going to take out of that and
go to a hand count, a lot of different issues are involved in that. So for
me to make that comment on that right now, when Florida is going, I think
would be inappropriate. I will tell
the people of California that the electronic system’s and the actual machines,
do have to meet a very high accuracy rate in California in order to be certified. And as you mentioned we have guidelines for
the CHAD discussion. I want to also
mention I talked with all the different executives of the major media before
the exit polling I stressed to them what we told them two years earlier, when
all the Secretaries agreed to neither avoid this. It does have an impact. I
think impacted California’s turn out by possibly up to 2 or 3%. And I hope this doesn’t happen again.
((Jack))
But it’s gonna’ happen again. If you’re
gonna’ do exit polling, if you’re going to give the networks the exit polling
information, or if they are going to pay to have it developed for them, they’re
also going to use it to project races.
((Mark
Baldassare, CA Public Policy Institute of CA)) Well there’s going to be a
lot of discussions after this election. Among
the pollsters, who are having endless discussions about how to be more responsible
about this process. And hopefully
those news executives will be having those same discussions.
((Jack))
Another email here. And anonymous
email. “Does it concern anyone in
California that thousands of absentee ballots were not sent to residents in
time?” – Anonymous
Bill
this is probably the motor voter confusion.
And so viewers understand, Motor Voter meant that when you, we need
to reregister your car if you moved, you can also reregister to vote to a
new county. And some of those people
that did that found out when they wanted to vote they couldn’t.
((Bill
Jones, CA Secretary of State)) Well, we have had some difficulty at times
with the department of motor vehicles on getting that information back and
getting that information to the registrar so that the information can go out
no problem. But a voter that wants
to come, believes that they have registered appropriately and wants to show
up at the polls on election day can still cast provisional ballot. And that ballot is then set aside until it’s
verified. So, we have a process for
that in California, we also have a fail-safe process. If you’ve been taken off the roll, by virtue of our dead-wood removal
process, where we take people who have died or moved away have not responded,
and you show up, we have a fail-safe process for that too. You can vote and then it’s set aside until
it’s verified. So, the goal is to
not have anyone disenfranchised. But,
we have work to do with DMV on that issue of how they provide that information
to us.
((Jack))
Mark we got a lot of response to this issue in terms of emails, you can see
them all here. When you go back into
the field to do your polling again, and you ask questions about this, do you
suspect that you’ll get responses along the lines of people want to see this,
at least in a Presidential race, this voting streamlined, or standardized
across the country. Not only in terms
of butterfly or nonbutterfly ballots, but also in the laws?
((Mark
Baldassare, CA Public Policy Institute of CA)) I don’t think so. I really think that in California people feel
that these decisions ought to be made locally and statewide and since there
haven’t been any issues here I don’t think there is going to be a desire to
create a national system. Especially
given the level of conflict we have in congress right now.
((Jack))
Should we have a nonpartisan office of Secretary of State in California? Would you feel better with that?
((Bill
Jones, CA Secretary of State)) I proposed that in 1994 and I lost that bill.
I proposed it again in 1998 and lost it again.
So, I think it is appropriate for this office to be nonpartisan like
the Superintendent of Public Instruction is.
But, having said that, even if it is, it still goes back to the individual. It always goes back to the individual. Whether you are Republican or Democrat, when you take this particular
office you’re a Californian and an American first. I read the law, not as a Republican, but as
an elected official, who really is responsible for the most important right
of the voters. So, it still gets back
to the individual Jack.
END OF DISCUSSION PART 1
((Jack))
Thank you very much, Bill Jones, Secretary of State, Mark Baldasarre, from
the Public Policy Institute. Thank
you both for being here. In a moment,
the Electoral College Vs the Popular Vote.
How should we decide the Presidency?
First we want to hear your thoughts about how we vote. What do you think about voting online? Would it be more accurate? Or do you support the current process? Send an email to Capitalweek.org, or send us
a letter to the address on your screen. Melissa.
DISCUSSION PART 2
((Melissa
Crowley)) Thanks Jack. With Florida’s
25 Electoral votes hanging in the balance, American’s are learning more and
questioning the way in which we chose our President. At issue, the importance of the Electoral College, and the fact
that one candidate can win the popular vote, but lose the Presidency without
enough electoral votes. Electors are
selected by the party to appear on the ballot of the Presidential Candidate.
You’re seeing California electors cast their ballots back in the 1996
Presidential Election. Electors in this year’s Presidential Election
won’t cast their ballots until December 18th. Now the closeness of this year’s race, raises
the question, should the popular vote alone, and not the Electoral College,
determine the Presidency? That of
course, would require a change in the United States Constitution. Joining us Michael Glennon, UC Davis Law Professor,
He is also an expert on the Electoral College and Constitutional Law.
And Bill Wong, and Elector from California , who is suddenly finding
himself a very popular man. Thank you both for being with us. Bill, when you were chosen to be an elector,
did you have any idea of the magnitude of your vote and how important it would
be?
((Bill
Wong, California Elector)) Oh, I had no idea.
I thought it was going to be a kind of proforma thing. I got submitted some paperwork, faxed it in,
and didn’t really think anything of it. It
was several weeks before the elections, so I had no idea.
((Melissa
Crowley)) Now your neighbors are being very nice to you I would imagine, with
the importance of the Electoral College these day.
((Bill
Wong, California Elector)) Yeah they are being nice, but at the same time
it’s very indicative of the rest of the public.
They are asking a lot of questions about what it is to be an elector,
how the Electoral College works. And
how that kind fits with the popular vote.
((Melissa
Crowley)) Alright now we have a lot of questions that we have received about
the Electoral College, and we are going to get to those, and we have some
wonderful folks to answer those questions with us. Michael as a professor you are explaining this process now, with
the spotlight on the Electoral College. One
question that we’ve been asked, that in fact people may not realize say in
California is that there are 54 Electoral votes, but 54 Democratic Electors
and 54 Republicans as well. Explain
how that works in each state?
((Michael
Glennon, UC Davis Law Professor)) Well in 42 states, like in California, when
you go to the polls and you vote for Al Gore you aren’t really voting for
Al Gore or George Bush, you ‘re voting for a slate of electors. You’re voting for people like Bill who on December
the 18th meet in the state Capitol, and cast their electoral votes
for that candidate, presumably. The big question is whether he can switch sides?
((Melissa
Crowley)) Now let’s talk a little bit about that. By law what is required of the electors? We’ve heard a lot about faithless electors
that decide at the last minute to cast their ballot for perhaps in this case,
for whoever wins the popular vote. What
does the law say about that?
((Michael
Glennon, UC Davis Law Professor)) Well it is up to the states. 24 states in the District of Columbia all require
that Electors like Bill, take some sort of pledge to vote for the candidate
of the party with whom they are affiliated. A faithless elector is someone who violates that pledge.
((Melissa
Crowley)) But necessarily any laws?
((Michael
Glennon, UC Davis Law Professor)) In 5 states actually there are laws. One state makes it a fourth degree felony,
to violate the pledge. Another makes
it a misdemeanor. There are civil penalties in a few of the other states. But this is largely virgin territory.
((Melissa
Crowley)) Alright Bill, what kind of pressure is there, knowing that in December
all the Electors will go in to cast their vote. Is there extra scrutiny and also extra pressure
on your shoulders?
((Bill
Wong, CA Elector)) Pressure in the sense that I think that, well when I was
first chosen as Elector I thought it was a tremendous honor. And now in light of the current situation it
seems to be that much more of an honor and a historic situation to cast a
vote in favor of Al Gore. I think
that whatever the ultimate winner is, it’s a tremendous honor to play such
an important role in such a close election.
((Melissa
Crowely)) Crucial actually . . . We want to get to some of the question that
we had about the Electoral College and get your thoughts on those.
Dianna
of Madera writes, “There is room for
discussion at the state level regarding the winner take all status.”
Which
I believe, Michael, what 48 states use. In
terms of whoever wants the popular vote in that state carries the electoral
vote. Explain the winner take all,
and actually two states do it differently right?
((Michael
Glennon, UC Davis Law Professor)) Two
states do it differently, Maine and Nebraska.
Allot electoral votes by congressional district. So, unlike California, if you win a majority
of the vote, or a plurality of the vote in California, you take all 54 electoral
votes. In these two states the votes
are allotted by congressional district by congressional district.
This is actually the way that James Madison thought that most states
would end up doing it, but it turns out to be rare.
((Melissa
Crowley)) Bill, what do you think about making a change? A lot of folks feel that whoever wins the popular
vote should also win the Presidency. Do
you think it’s time to take a look at the Electoral College and how it works?
((Bill
Wong, CA Elector)) Yes I do. When
they had originally done the Electoral College or came up with it. You were dealing with a totally different Electorate.
Now you have an Electorate that has access to television, radio, the
internet, newspaper has all sorts of information about the candidates.
The vast majority of them make very intelligent and votes for who they
believe should be President, and I think that the popular vote should stand.
((Melissa
Crowley)) Alright now. It’s not that
easy. If in fact after this election
there is a decision made to change the Electoral College what are our options? Is it ultimately a change in the US Constitution
that would need to be approved Michael?
((Michael
Glennon, UC Davis Law Professor)) Well, one option would be of course for
the remaining 48 states to move to the district system. That would be my preferred solution. Number 1 it would be much easier to do than ammending the constitution.
¾ of the states have to approve that.
That’s highly unlikely. These changes have been proposed over the course
of 2 centuries. The Electoral College
is the part of the Constitution that is most often subject for proposals for
ammendment. It’s never happened, it’s
not likely to happen. And I think
it’s probably a bad idea, for the same reason, that John Kennedy did when
he was a Senator. He said that when
you change one element in the political solar system, every other element
is affected. The state party system,
the separation of powers, the two party system. And we just don’t know what the long-range
consequences are likely to be with abolishing the Electoral College.
((Melissa
Crowley)) Alright let’s get to another suggestion or question that viewer
wrote.
Jeffrey
of Sacramento wrote, “I believe a credible
third candidate would have a much easier time if we didn’t go through mathematical
gymnastics.”
Some
of the criticism of the Electoral College would be that it is obviously very
difficult for a third party candidate to win any electoral votes. But what are your thoughts on that, especially
when you look at say the role that Ralph Nader played in this election.
((Bill
Wong, CA Elector)) I think it’s generally harder for a third party candidate
to win the popular vote as well, so it really deals with how parties start
to include different issues that are in third parties, or whether or not there
is truly a need for change that the third parties are proposing.
((Melissa
Crowley)) Alright, Michael is it true that the smaller states are actually
benefit from the Electoral College in terms of if there was just a popular
vote Candidates could chose to just campaign in the larger states? The Electoral College does offer some protection
to make sure that the smaller states do have their voices heard?
((Michael
Glennon, UC Davis Law Professor)) That’s probably true. The smaller states do get more attention than
they would have otherwise, because every state gets at least three Electoral
votes. Alaska gets three Electoral
votes. Alaska might be ignored, even
though it is largely ignored. It might
be ignored even more prominently than it is if it had no Electoral votes.
((Melissa
Crowley)) We did have some folks support that.
Let me quickly touch on that.
Hargis
of Antioch writes, “The system has been
working for many years it’s only when someone doesn’t like the outcome that
they want to change it.”
But
Floyd of Los Angeles writes, “I definitely
favor the popular vote in determining who should be the next President.”
We
should mention that you are going to cast your vote with the other Electors
December 18th Bill, but that is not necessarily the end of the
rode.
((Bill
Wong, CA Elector)) Right, apparently there’s . . . in studying it there seems
to be a lot of different end games as to what’s going to happen, if for example,
there seems to be a tie, or if Florida doesn’t come in and there is a tie
of Electoral votes then it goes to the House of Representatives and there’s
been some discussion of some of the members of the House of Representatives
voting for Al Gore instead for George Bush.
That there are Republicans and then it’s possible that Dennis Hastrich
could end up being President of the United States.
((Melissa
Crowley)) Alright, this is something we’ll be watching. Michael mentioned something, the Senate might
have the final say in this, as well.
END DISCUSSION PART 2
((Melissa
Crowley)) We want to thank you both very much for being with us, unfortunately
we are out of time, but we’d like to invite you at home to take part in our
online questionnaire log onto Capitolweek.org for this weeks questions. Should we update how we vote and cast our ballots?
And should we keep or remove the Electoral College? And thank you very
much for your incredible response to last week’s question about choosing our
President by popular vote or through the Electoral College?
Time now for a look at elections from a different point of view. Through the eyes of some political cartoonists, there has certainly
been a lot of material lately.